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	<title>Comments on: anthropologist overboard</title>
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	<description>This Blog Sits At the Intersection of Anthropology and Economics</description>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6248</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Steve, I think we are looking at the advent, or better the return, of the Victorian amateur, people astonishingly expert in their chosen fields, and working almost completely without the benefit of institution or even professonal support.  It is to some extent because the internet now gives them a venue for their work that they may now engage it without appear to invite appellation of kook or eccentric.  They have an audience, even if they communicate it with it by means of muttered posts on a neglected blog (see above).  But as long as they are creating value that cannot be found elsewhere then there should be no point of principle that says they must not charge.  If they can, fine; if they can&#039;t, fine.  Some seem to argue that making money is in and of itself a disagreeable thing...as if we were all landed aristocrats who shouldnt be seen to be exerting themselves.  Dyson&#039;s point strikes me as really apt.  Do you have the reference?  One note, though: how close are these close substitutes.  To talk of blogs: If you are using a blog or several of them as the conning tower for a new company, say, I wonder if merely close is close enough, and whether the risk warrants the small slivers of value that blogs might ask for.  Thanks, Grant
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I think we are looking at the advent, or better the return, of the Victorian amateur, people astonishingly expert in their chosen fields, and working almost completely without the benefit of institution or even professonal support.  It is to some extent because the internet now gives them a venue for their work that they may now engage it without appear to invite appellation of kook or eccentric.  They have an audience, even if they communicate it with it by means of muttered posts on a neglected blog (see above).  But as long as they are creating value that cannot be found elsewhere then there should be no point of principle that says they must not charge.  If they can, fine; if they can&#8217;t, fine.  Some seem to argue that making money is in and of itself a disagreeable thing&#8230;as if we were all landed aristocrats who shouldnt be seen to be exerting themselves.  Dyson&#8217;s point strikes me as really apt.  Do you have the reference?  One note, though: how close are these close substitutes.  To talk of blogs: If you are using a blog or several of them as the conning tower for a new company, say, I wonder if merely close is close enough, and whether the risk warrants the small slivers of value that blogs might ask for.  Thanks, Grant</p>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6247</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=937#comment-6247</guid>
		<description>This is not just a question of &quot;maturity&quot; of people or the market. Long ago, Esther Dyson pointed out that the internet world was going to be one where very few people were going to be able to make a living providing &quot;content.&quot; This was because there would be so much competition out there with so many very close substitutes, including people who put out content for free as a loss leader or a hobby, that no one would be able to charge high enough prices to make a living. This prediction may be coming true. Poltical blogging, for example, is gradually destroying opinion journalism for all but a few high-profile players who act as touchstones, exactly as Dyson predicted.
Her corollary prediction was that people would instead be paid for &quot;performances,&quot; such as public speaking or consulting or executive teaching, because these can&#039;t be copied so easily and don&#039;t scale well given the human desire for physical presence. This prediction also seems to be coming true.
Lots of people got pretty upset with Dyson when she made these arguements. Writers, in particular, thought it unfair and wrong that they should have to learn to be public speakers to make a living. Her protestation that she was predicting, not advocating, these trends fell largely on deaf ears.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is not just a question of &#8220;maturity&#8221; of people or the market. Long ago, Esther Dyson pointed out that the internet world was going to be one where very few people were going to be able to make a living providing &#8220;content.&#8221; This was because there would be so much competition out there with so many very close substitutes, including people who put out content for free as a loss leader or a hobby, that no one would be able to charge high enough prices to make a living. This prediction may be coming true. Poltical blogging, for example, is gradually destroying opinion journalism for all but a few high-profile players who act as touchstones, exactly as Dyson predicted.</p>
<p>Her corollary prediction was that people would instead be paid for &#8220;performances,&#8221; such as public speaking or consulting or executive teaching, because these can&#8217;t be copied so easily and don&#8217;t scale well given the human desire for physical presence. This prediction also seems to be coming true.</p>
<p>Lots of people got pretty upset with Dyson when she made these arguements. Writers, in particular, thought it unfair and wrong that they should have to learn to be public speakers to make a living. Her protestation that she was predicting, not advocating, these trends fell largely on deaf ears.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6246</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Matt, Hey, I&#039;m not saying we shouldn&#039;t use the net for enchanted purposes, I have done so myself at onsiderable expense, but I am saying its wrong to take umbrage when someone wishes to monetize the thing, esp. when it sounds like we are objecting to the very idea of running the thing on a commercial basis.  I am sorry if I sould condescending, but this aspect of the internet puts me in mind of those people who now take umbrage when their internet cafe askes them to at least order a coffee when they sit for 5 hours.  Actually, it reminds me, somewhat more distantly, of that American farmer who responded to the public outcry that met the slaughter of pigs during, I think, the depression.  (The market price had fallen.)  &quot;What do you think we raised them for, pets?&quot;  To extract value and then to take umbrage when someone asks us to pay for it doesn&#039;t seem realistic.  Thanks!  Grant
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, Hey, I&#8217;m not saying we shouldn&#8217;t use the net for enchanted purposes, I have done so myself at onsiderable expense, but I am saying its wrong to take umbrage when someone wishes to monetize the thing, esp. when it sounds like we are objecting to the very idea of running the thing on a commercial basis.  I am sorry if I sould condescending, but this aspect of the internet puts me in mind of those people who now take umbrage when their internet cafe askes them to at least order a coffee when they sit for 5 hours.  Actually, it reminds me, somewhat more distantly, of that American farmer who responded to the public outcry that met the slaughter of pigs during, I think, the depression.  (The market price had fallen.)  &#8220;What do you think we raised them for, pets?&#8221;  To extract value and then to take umbrage when someone asks us to pay for it doesn&#8217;t seem realistic.  Thanks!  Grant</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6245</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=937#comment-6245</guid>
		<description>To reproduce the AiW quality of the DotCom era, I think you&#039;d need to build in the supposition that _hobbies_ can scale unmodified into _public corporations_. Which, while very occasionally true, is a bad heuristic for judging investment prospects.
But I think it&#039;s a gross error to define &quot;success&quot; so high that an idea can only be successful if it&#039;s so huge that it&#039;s easy to monetize...or even to universally define success in monetary terms at all.
Now, unlike some, I have absolutely nothing against making money. I&#039;m running a business that I expect to make a great deal of it, based on an idea my partner and I had for ways to reduce the expenses and general pain involved in other businesses, and I make no apologies for my profit motive.
But a large part of the beauty of the internet is that it allows people to bring ideas to a global audience for a cost so negligible that the ideas can catch on and become viable in a huge community, _without_ the need to monetize them in order to recoup expenses and produce a profit.
Some ideas produce real value but are nevertheless hard to successfully monetize. Meetup.com seems a good example. (I can think of a few ways that could have been more successfully monetized, but none of them are either obvious or foolproof.) This does not make them failures unless their creators view success entirely in monetary terms (or, as may be the case with meetup, have sold their souls to investors on the basis of unrealistic RoI projections).
So, hooray for the folks who can monetize their ideas successfully...it&#039;s harder than it looks and they deserve every dime they can make. But let&#039;s put aside the condescending about &quot;the real world&quot; for those who either choose not to focus on ease of monetization or find themselves confronted with value too diffuse to successfully capture. Whether you believe it or not, they live in the real world too, and some of them are doing a lot to make it a better place.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To reproduce the AiW quality of the DotCom era, I think you&#8217;d need to build in the supposition that _hobbies_ can scale unmodified into _public corporations_. Which, while very occasionally true, is a bad heuristic for judging investment prospects.</p>
<p>But I think it&#8217;s a gross error to define &#8220;success&#8221; so high that an idea can only be successful if it&#8217;s so huge that it&#8217;s easy to monetize&#8230;or even to universally define success in monetary terms at all.</p>
<p>Now, unlike some, I have absolutely nothing against making money. I&#8217;m running a business that I expect to make a great deal of it, based on an idea my partner and I had for ways to reduce the expenses and general pain involved in other businesses, and I make no apologies for my profit motive.</p>
<p>But a large part of the beauty of the internet is that it allows people to bring ideas to a global audience for a cost so negligible that the ideas can catch on and become viable in a huge community, _without_ the need to monetize them in order to recoup expenses and produce a profit.</p>
<p>Some ideas produce real value but are nevertheless hard to successfully monetize. Meetup.com seems a good example. (I can think of a few ways that could have been more successfully monetized, but none of them are either obvious or foolproof.) This does not make them failures unless their creators view success entirely in monetary terms (or, as may be the case with meetup, have sold their souls to investors on the basis of unrealistic RoI projections).</p>
<p>So, hooray for the folks who can monetize their ideas successfully&#8230;it&#8217;s harder than it looks and they deserve every dime they can make. But let&#8217;s put aside the condescending about &#8220;the real world&#8221; for those who either choose not to focus on ease of monetization or find themselves confronted with value too diffuse to successfully capture. Whether you believe it or not, they live in the real world too, and some of them are doing a lot to make it a better place.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6244</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=937#comment-6244</guid>
		<description>MEL, Shouldn&#039;t we regard all experiments as being in the trial phase.  An innovator knows that the innovation is so innovative that, chances are, we are not going to pay for it.  At this point in the product cycle, we cant even be sure what kind of value the innovation is likely to generate for us, or whether indeed it will generate any at all...so it&#039;s unreasonable to expect that we are prepared to pay.  (We are indeed paying something just be trying it out, because without this adoption it will be impossible for Meetup to see what Meetup can do.)  But after adoption and the demonstration of value, now it&#039;s time to say, &quot;Ok, hand it over.&quot;  Anything else reproduces that Alice in Wonderland quality of the dot.com run up.  I think.  Thanks!  Grant
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MEL, Shouldn&#8217;t we regard all experiments as being in the trial phase.  An innovator knows that the innovation is so innovative that, chances are, we are not going to pay for it.  At this point in the product cycle, we cant even be sure what kind of value the innovation is likely to generate for us, or whether indeed it will generate any at all&#8230;so it&#8217;s unreasonable to expect that we are prepared to pay.  (We are indeed paying something just be trying it out, because without this adoption it will be impossible for Meetup to see what Meetup can do.)  But after adoption and the demonstration of value, now it&#8217;s time to say, &#8220;Ok, hand it over.&#8221;  Anything else reproduces that Alice in Wonderland quality of the dot.com run up.  I think.  Thanks!  Grant</p>
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		<title>By: MEL</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6243</link>
		<dc:creator>MEL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=937#comment-6243</guid>
		<description>Sorry for referencing &quot;whuffie&quot; without reference -- an annoying habit of mine, to assume that everyone&#039;s carrying the same culture referents as I do. Here&#039;s the wikipedia article on same:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie
(Heck, I just edited the article, just to clean up some language -- Wikipedia is an excellent example of this post&#039;s subject.)
As to the Meetup question -- it&#039;s true, we shouldn&#039;t expect something for nothing. Part of the problem is that they built a strong community (or a series of strong communities) without charging. Then they attempted to monetize those communities. I&#039;d argue that this is psychologically different from starting to charge for a service. Example: When Six Apart began to charge for their latest Movable Type version, I may not have *liked* it, but I was free in the marketplace to make my own choice -- move to a different system, keep using the old free version, or pay them for an upgrade. I recognize that Six Apart is a company, and that companies have loss leaders.
But changing over from free to paid feels different when it&#039;s a community. Imagine that I&#039;ve started a salon in my living room. People come, the conversation is great, the reputation of my salon grows. One day I stand before the salon and say, you know, I have to pay rent here, so if you want to keep coming you&#039;ll have to pay me. The normal response, I think, would be -- why do we have to meet at your place at all?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for referencing &#8220;whuffie&#8221; without reference &#8212; an annoying habit of mine, to assume that everyone&#8217;s carrying the same culture referents as I do. Here&#8217;s the wikipedia article on same:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie</a></p>
<p>(Heck, I just edited the article, just to clean up some language &#8212; Wikipedia is an excellent example of this post&#8217;s subject.)</p>
<p>As to the Meetup question &#8212; it&#8217;s true, we shouldn&#8217;t expect something for nothing. Part of the problem is that they built a strong community (or a series of strong communities) without charging. Then they attempted to monetize those communities. I&#8217;d argue that this is psychologically different from starting to charge for a service. Example: When Six Apart began to charge for their latest Movable Type version, I may not have *liked* it, but I was free in the marketplace to make my own choice &#8212; move to a different system, keep using the old free version, or pay them for an upgrade. I recognize that Six Apart is a company, and that companies have loss leaders.</p>
<p>But changing over from free to paid feels different when it&#8217;s a community. Imagine that I&#8217;ve started a salon in my living room. People come, the conversation is great, the reputation of my salon grows. One day I stand before the salon and say, you know, I have to pay rent here, so if you want to keep coming you&#8217;ll have to pay me. The normal response, I think, would be &#8212; why do we have to meet at your place at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6242</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=937#comment-6242</guid>
		<description>Ennis, good bad about pricing.  Won&#039;t reputation travelling on line help solve this problem.  And in fact then it can be tiered play lists, with one price for the basic compilations and an additional charge for the extent to which they are customized for the person, for the occasion of the person.  Actually, what happens to pricing should be one of the sensational changes created by the internet, but I havent really thought it through. But the principle here is that I will pay in proportion to the &quot;fit&quot; between me and the product.  This already happens in the non internet marketplace obviously, with some people living in more or less customized homes and the rest of us having to do with &quot;standard issue.&quot;  Hmmm.  Thanks.  Grant
MEL, thats precisely my point, why do people flee when something like Meetup starts to charge.  What planet are we living in.  Do we really think that Meetup should have created all this value...for nothing.  This isnt so much enchanted as delirious.    So my move from Movable Type to Typepad, I was kind of wondering when and how I would be able to reward these innovators.
I dont know what wuffie means but now, thanks to Amoeda, I now know where to look.  Thanks.
Amoeda, This is naive of me, I&#039;m sure, but don&#039;t all markets start &quot;fat&quot; and then develop &quot;long tails&quot; when there is enough wealth that we can support people part time to create things for which there is not enough demand to sustain them full time and enough concentrations of interest that the mainstream begins to   fragment.  In this moment, people are all &quot;about&quot; satisfying themselves and they do so without regard to what the consumer wants and where the &quot;fat&quot; part of the market is.  Most of them  will say stuff like, &quot;I do this for myself and if others like it, fine.&quot;  Now the market kind of turns inside out.  For a long time it exercises a conservative effect on cultural productions.  It pushes producers to care about utility more than expression and when addressing the latter, to move to the fat part of the marketplace not the tail.  But once people are producing part time, for themselves and a couple of others, now the constraints come off, and cultural innovation is now feverish.  So, yes, this is what maturing markets do.  It&#039;s like the next step after division of labor.  DofL says that people can devote themselves to one thing and everyone will reap the rewards that come therefore.  Post DofL says, now someone can devote themselves to one thing and to whatever they can imagine in that domain.  Clearly, I am just babbling and now I&#039;m going to stop.  Thanks!  Grant
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ennis, good bad about pricing.  Won&#8217;t reputation travelling on line help solve this problem.  And in fact then it can be tiered play lists, with one price for the basic compilations and an additional charge for the extent to which they are customized for the person, for the occasion of the person.  Actually, what happens to pricing should be one of the sensational changes created by the internet, but I havent really thought it through. But the principle here is that I will pay in proportion to the &#8220;fit&#8221; between me and the product.  This already happens in the non internet marketplace obviously, with some people living in more or less customized homes and the rest of us having to do with &#8220;standard issue.&#8221;  Hmmm.  Thanks.  Grant</p>
<p>MEL, thats precisely my point, why do people flee when something like Meetup starts to charge.  What planet are we living in.  Do we really think that Meetup should have created all this value&#8230;for nothing.  This isnt so much enchanted as delirious.    So my move from Movable Type to Typepad, I was kind of wondering when and how I would be able to reward these innovators.</p>
<p>I dont know what wuffie means but now, thanks to Amoeda, I now know where to look.  Thanks.</p>
<p>Amoeda, This is naive of me, I&#8217;m sure, but don&#8217;t all markets start &#8220;fat&#8221; and then develop &#8220;long tails&#8221; when there is enough wealth that we can support people part time to create things for which there is not enough demand to sustain them full time and enough concentrations of interest that the mainstream begins to   fragment.  In this moment, people are all &#8220;about&#8221; satisfying themselves and they do so without regard to what the consumer wants and where the &#8220;fat&#8221; part of the market is.  Most of them  will say stuff like, &#8220;I do this for myself and if others like it, fine.&#8221;  Now the market kind of turns inside out.  For a long time it exercises a conservative effect on cultural productions.  It pushes producers to care about utility more than expression and when addressing the latter, to move to the fat part of the marketplace not the tail.  But once people are producing part time, for themselves and a couple of others, now the constraints come off, and cultural innovation is now feverish.  So, yes, this is what maturing markets do.  It&#8217;s like the next step after division of labor.  DofL says that people can devote themselves to one thing and everyone will reap the rewards that come therefore.  Post DofL says, now someone can devote themselves to one thing and to whatever they can imagine in that domain.  Clearly, I am just babbling and now I&#8217;m going to stop.  Thanks!  Grant</p>
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		<title>By: amoeda</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6241</link>
		<dc:creator>amoeda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=937#comment-6241</guid>
		<description>Source of the term &quot;whuffie&quot;: Cory Doctorow&#039;s novella &quot;Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom,&quot; a quick read that I think Grant might enjoy.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Source of the term &#8220;whuffie&#8221;: Cory Doctorow&#8217;s novella &#8220;Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom,&#8221; a quick read that I think Grant might enjoy.</p>
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		<title>By: amoeda</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6240</link>
		<dc:creator>amoeda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=937#comment-6240</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Grant. I was more acerbic in my first comment than I meant to be. I was admittedly provoked by your contention that to move to monetized commerce is to &quot;grow up.&quot; That has been mostly true in the past, and I agree with you that there are goods and services that advance civilization that we could never have if we couldn&#039;t pay cash for them. But as Ennis points out, there are other services, arguably including mixtape making, where the option of entering a reciprocal marketplace actually improves the overall quality of what&#039;s available--for example, maybe DJ X makes the best mixtapes and likes to make them now and again, but since she has a high-paying gig already, she doesn&#039;t want to sell mixes-to-order because she can&#039;t provide them reliably. Not everyone will get a DJ X mixtape, but at least some will. Absent constraints like these (or, as Ennis notes, pricing confusion), we&#039;ll get monetized commerce anyway because people want liquid assets. But to my mind the profusion of alternate marketplaces that make whole new types of things exchangeable is the sign of a maturing economy, not arrested development.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Grant. I was more acerbic in my first comment than I meant to be. I was admittedly provoked by your contention that to move to monetized commerce is to &#8220;grow up.&#8221; That has been mostly true in the past, and I agree with you that there are goods and services that advance civilization that we could never have if we couldn&#8217;t pay cash for them. But as Ennis points out, there are other services, arguably including mixtape making, where the option of entering a reciprocal marketplace actually improves the overall quality of what&#8217;s available&#8211;for example, maybe DJ X makes the best mixtapes and likes to make them now and again, but since she has a high-paying gig already, she doesn&#8217;t want to sell mixes-to-order because she can&#8217;t provide them reliably. Not everyone will get a DJ X mixtape, but at least some will. Absent constraints like these (or, as Ennis notes, pricing confusion), we&#8217;ll get monetized commerce anyway because people want liquid assets. But to my mind the profusion of alternate marketplaces that make whole new types of things exchangeable is the sign of a maturing economy, not arrested development.</p>
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		<title>By: MEL</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/06/anthropologist__1.html/comment-page-1#comment-6239</link>
		<dc:creator>MEL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=937#comment-6239</guid>
		<description>At the risk of turning this into a nearly all-Ishbadiddle-poster thread (hi, amoeda! hi, Ennis!) I&#039;ll throw out an example to fold into the mix: Meetup. Meetup used to be an enchanted exchange enabling the gathering of like-minded people -- then they tried to monetize it, by charging organizers, and everyone fled.
I also feel like saying the word &quot;whuffie&quot; here. It&#039;s amazing to me what people will do for egoboos, or even a meaningless score.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of turning this into a nearly all-Ishbadiddle-poster thread (hi, amoeda! hi, Ennis!) I&#8217;ll throw out an example to fold into the mix: Meetup. Meetup used to be an enchanted exchange enabling the gathering of like-minded people &#8212; then they tried to monetize it, by charging organizers, and everyone fled.</p>
<p>I also feel like saying the word &#8220;whuffie&#8221; here. It&#8217;s amazing to me what people will do for egoboos, or even a meaningless score.</p>
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