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	<title>Comments on: Unknown unknowns, 9/11 and a useful anthropology</title>
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	<description>This Blog Sits At the Intersection of Anthropology and Economics</description>
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		<title>By: Peter McB.</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5800</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McB.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Grant -- not sure that Computer Science is there yet, but we are on the path.
It is interesting (in the light of your comment) that one reason for CS people to be interested in discovery of rare events was the realization (primarily by Japanese researchers around 1998-9) that standard data mining techniques begin by eliminating noise, yet the really interesting phenomena are usually found in the noise, not in the signal.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grant &#8212; not sure that Computer Science is there yet, but we are on the path.</p>
<p>It is interesting (in the light of your comment) that one reason for CS people to be interested in discovery of rare events was the realization (primarily by Japanese researchers around 1998-9) that standard data mining techniques begin by eliminating noise, yet the really interesting phenomena are usually found in the noise, not in the signal.</p>
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		<title>By: LK</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5799</link>
		<dc:creator>LK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=875#comment-5799</guid>
		<description>
4 yrs after 9/11 it&#039;s still hard to process and this post and these comments zero in on why.
Q: When is a plane not a plane?
A: When it&#039;s a bomb, owned and operated by the victim, full of unwittingvictims, and pointed straight at thousands of unlucky everyday people,not to mention hundreds of millions of dollars worth of real estate, and even better than that a irrefutable symbol. ceci n&#039;est pas un avion indeed.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>4 yrs after 9/11 it&#8217;s still hard to process and this post and these comments zero in on why.</p>
<p>Q: When is a plane not a plane?<br />
A: When it&#8217;s a bomb, owned and operated by the victim, full of unwittingvictims, and pointed straight at thousands of unlucky everyday people,not to mention hundreds of millions of dollars worth of real estate, and even better than that a irrefutable symbol. ceci n&#8217;est pas un avion indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5798</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=875#comment-5798</guid>
		<description>Peter, thanks, looks very interesting indeed; wow, so that&#039;s possible? a protocol that can tell the difference between novelty and noise?  wonderful.  we should talk.  I&#039;ve been working on the something like the same problem, supposing, perhaps incorrectly, that all novelty looks like noise in the first instances, repetition counts not just because it suggests that the thing is formed (and not noise) but because repetition is actually part of the forming process.  It is establishing the type of which the novelty can then be a token.  Anyhow, I have had a long talk with my accountant and I am ordering your book now.  Best, Grant
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, thanks, looks very interesting indeed; wow, so that&#8217;s possible? a protocol that can tell the difference between novelty and noise?  wonderful.  we should talk.  I&#8217;ve been working on the something like the same problem, supposing, perhaps incorrectly, that all novelty looks like noise in the first instances, repetition counts not just because it suggests that the thing is formed (and not noise) but because repetition is actually part of the forming process.  It is establishing the type of which the novelty can then be a token.  Anyhow, I have had a long talk with my accountant and I am ordering your book now.  Best, Grant</p>
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		<title>By: Peter McB.</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5797</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McB.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=875#comment-5797</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Grant.
My book is &quot;Chance Discovery&quot;, co-edited with Yukio Ohsawa (Springer, 2003).  Here&#039;s the amazon.com page:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3540005498/qid=1126644026/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-8844951-7195020?v=glance&amp;s=books
The book is part of a larger effort to find processes for automated discovery of rare events in computer decision support systems, and I think will be of most interest to computer science/artificial intelligence people.  Not much marketing or anthropology in it, I&#039;m afraid.
One of my papers in the book is an attempt (with Simon Parsons) to develop a protocol for computer dialogues which can lead to identification of rare events.  There may be connections with the ideas in your post about processes for skunk works.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Grant.</p>
<p>My book is &#8220;Chance Discovery&#8221;, co-edited with Yukio Ohsawa (Springer, 2003).  Here&#8217;s the amazon.com page:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3540005498/qid=1126644026/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-8844951-7195020?v=glance&#038;s=books" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3540005498/qid=1126644026/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-8844951-7195020?v=glance&#038;s=books</a></p>
<p>The book is part of a larger effort to find processes for automated discovery of rare events in computer decision support systems, and I think will be of most interest to computer science/artificial intelligence people.  Not much marketing or anthropology in it, I&#8217;m afraid.</p>
<p>One of my papers in the book is an attempt (with Simon Parsons) to develop a protocol for computer dialogues which can lead to identification of rare events.  There may be connections with the ideas in your post about processes for skunk works.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5796</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=875#comment-5796</guid>
		<description>Steve, of course, you can&#039;t know, that&#039;s the name of the game, but of course you surely won&#039;t know if you don&#039;t  keep looking, a lesson for the military and corporation both.  Thanks, Grant
Tom, wow, splendid, thank you, I knew our field had something in common and now I know what, which is to say, I guess, that we both fall into the cultivated skeptism camp that the West has made pay so richly.  This is one of the things the enemy cannot do...not until, as I was laboring to suggest, that actually to learn to swap assumption jamming strategies on the fly.  That will be very, very scary.  Thanks, Grant
Dilys, brilliant line about dispute over destinations!  Thanks, Grant
Peter, could we have the name of that, your book, please.  That&#039;s interestng to think about, that surprise might be the new condition.  I think Drucker says something about this.  Or maybe it&#039;s Peter Schwartz of GBN.  Thanks, Grant
I see your point about the assumptions question perhaps being knowns not unknowns.  Anthropologically, I think they are the latter.  You could interview someone forever and they likely would not report the value in question here.  If they did, it would sound fatuous and we would be inclined to dismiss it as a truism.  It wouldn&#039;t actually have any value as a corrective against invisible assumptions.  Thanks! Grant
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, of course, you can&#8217;t know, that&#8217;s the name of the game, but of course you surely won&#8217;t know if you don&#8217;t  keep looking, a lesson for the military and corporation both.  Thanks, Grant</p>
<p>Tom, wow, splendid, thank you, I knew our field had something in common and now I know what, which is to say, I guess, that we both fall into the cultivated skeptism camp that the West has made pay so richly.  This is one of the things the enemy cannot do&#8230;not until, as I was laboring to suggest, that actually to learn to swap assumption jamming strategies on the fly.  That will be very, very scary.  Thanks, Grant</p>
<p>Dilys, brilliant line about dispute over destinations!  Thanks, Grant</p>
<p>Peter, could we have the name of that, your book, please.  That&#8217;s interestng to think about, that surprise might be the new condition.  I think Drucker says something about this.  Or maybe it&#8217;s Peter Schwartz of GBN.  Thanks, Grant</p>
<p>I see your point about the assumptions question perhaps being knowns not unknowns.  Anthropologically, I think they are the latter.  You could interview someone forever and they likely would not report the value in question here.  If they did, it would sound fatuous and we would be inclined to dismiss it as a truism.  It wouldn&#8217;t actually have any value as a corrective against invisible assumptions.  Thanks! Grant</p>
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		<title>By: Peter McB.</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5795</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McB.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=875#comment-5795</guid>
		<description>And related:
Donald Rumsfeld&#039;s profound statement (12 Feb 2002) about &quot;unknown unknowns&quot; overlooked one category of knowledge:  the &quot;unknown knowns&quot;:  the things we don&#039;t know that we know.  So, for example, lots of information was known about the individual 9/11 terrorists before the attacks, which, if collated, analyzed and used quickly, may have prevented some or all of the attacks.  We just did not know that we knew this information.
Cultural assumptions we forget about are perhaps in this category.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And related:</p>
<p>Donald Rumsfeld&#8217;s profound statement (12 Feb 2002) about &#8220;unknown unknowns&#8221; overlooked one category of knowledge:  the &#8220;unknown knowns&#8221;:  the things we don&#8217;t know that we know.  So, for example, lots of information was known about the individual 9/11 terrorists before the attacks, which, if collated, analyzed and used quickly, may have prevented some or all of the attacks.  We just did not know that we knew this information.</p>
<p>Cultural assumptions we forget about are perhaps in this category.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter McB.</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5794</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McB.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=875#comment-5794</guid>
		<description>As one would expect, the question of surprise events and their prediction has become a hot topic in recent years, with lots of papers and several books (one of which I co-edited) being published.  This activity predates 9/11 by a few years; an interesting question is why this interest arose when it did, prior to 9/11.  Indeed, this is the second time we in the west have been pre-occupied with the topic of surprise in the last century.
The first time was in response to Pearl Harbour and the Cold War, when the enemy could launch a surprise attack which would annihilate us all.  During the 1950s, western governments sponsored considerable research and even held conferences on the topic of &quot;Surprise&quot;.  One, in 1958, included both Soviet and US representatives and sought unsuccessfully to find mutually-agreed ways to eliminate the possibility of surprise nuclear attacks by either side.    Economists reading this may know the name of George Shackle, who developed at the same time a model of uncertainty built on the degree of surprise an event would cause a decision-maker.
An historian of the 20th century may wonder why we were pre-occupied with the issue in the 1950s and again 40 years later, but apparently hardly at all in between.    Was it that we became smug, thinking that we&#039;d solved the problem of surprise nuclear attack?  There may have been some of that feeling because of the various arms limitation treaties signed between the USA and the USSR.    Or, was it that we found nuclear devastation too painful an idea to entertain for long periods, and so put it out of our mind?  (Personally, I think this was the reason for the mostly-negative reactions to Herman Kahn&#039;s books on nuclear war.)  Whatever the reason, I think there important consequences for our ability, as a society, to ensure that we continue to focus on this issue.
And, any concerted effort using rigorous methods, such as the ones you describe so well, Grant, to predict these events now, should be looking at the methods and experiences of our nuclear strategists and cold-war-warriors in the 1950s and 1960s to do similar.  Different enemy, and different mind, but same task.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one would expect, the question of surprise events and their prediction has become a hot topic in recent years, with lots of papers and several books (one of which I co-edited) being published.  This activity predates 9/11 by a few years; an interesting question is why this interest arose when it did, prior to 9/11.  Indeed, this is the second time we in the west have been pre-occupied with the topic of surprise in the last century.</p>
<p>The first time was in response to Pearl Harbour and the Cold War, when the enemy could launch a surprise attack which would annihilate us all.  During the 1950s, western governments sponsored considerable research and even held conferences on the topic of &#8220;Surprise&#8221;.  One, in 1958, included both Soviet and US representatives and sought unsuccessfully to find mutually-agreed ways to eliminate the possibility of surprise nuclear attacks by either side.    Economists reading this may know the name of George Shackle, who developed at the same time a model of uncertainty built on the degree of surprise an event would cause a decision-maker.</p>
<p>An historian of the 20th century may wonder why we were pre-occupied with the issue in the 1950s and again 40 years later, but apparently hardly at all in between.    Was it that we became smug, thinking that we&#8217;d solved the problem of surprise nuclear attack?  There may have been some of that feeling because of the various arms limitation treaties signed between the USA and the USSR.    Or, was it that we found nuclear devastation too painful an idea to entertain for long periods, and so put it out of our mind?  (Personally, I think this was the reason for the mostly-negative reactions to Herman Kahn&#8217;s books on nuclear war.)  Whatever the reason, I think there important consequences for our ability, as a society, to ensure that we continue to focus on this issue.</p>
<p>And, any concerted effort using rigorous methods, such as the ones you describe so well, Grant, to predict these events now, should be looking at the methods and experiences of our nuclear strategists and cold-war-warriors in the 1950s and 1960s to do similar.  Different enemy, and different mind, but same task.</p>
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		<title>By: dilys</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5793</link>
		<dc:creator>dilys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=875#comment-5793</guid>
		<description>I find both Grant&#039;s and the earlier commentors&#039; posts instructive. There is also the importance [indispensability?] of what Grant has pointed out earlier: an informant, to trouble-shoot one&#039;s descriptions, conclusions, assigned meanings, and scenarios from &quot;inside the model.&quot;
I&#039;m also reminded of the creativity-class cliche -- take an ordinary object and ask &quot;how many ways can this object be used?&quot; Our inner imagery was entirely identified with airplanes as tools of our safety, strategy, and effectiveness. Our earlier fear, hijacking to Cuba etc., was merely competition between travelers over a destination.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find both Grant&#8217;s and the earlier commentors&#8217; posts instructive. There is also the importance [indispensability?] of what Grant has pointed out earlier: an informant, to trouble-shoot one&#8217;s descriptions, conclusions, assigned meanings, and scenarios from &#8220;inside the model.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also reminded of the creativity-class cliche &#8212; take an ordinary object and ask &#8220;how many ways can this object be used?&#8221; Our inner imagery was entirely identified with airplanes as tools of our safety, strategy, and effectiveness. Our earlier fear, hijacking to Cuba etc., was merely competition between travelers over a destination.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Guarriello</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5792</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Guarriello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2005 19:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_culture/?p=875#comment-5792</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve spent my entire adult life thinking about the issues you describe in this post, Grant. As a graduate student, I studied phenomenological psychology. Phenomenology is the study of experience and the assumptions that are the constituents of that experience. The philosopher, Edmund Husserl, following in the footsteps of his teacher, Franz Brentano, wrote about performing what has come to be called the &quot;phenomenological reduction.&quot; In the reduction, one attempts to place one&#039;s assumptions &quot;in bracket,&quot; holding them in abeyance, and describing an experience in their absence.
And so, instead of saying, &quot;I walked into a supermarket and headed to the daily case,&quot; one would say, &quot;I entered a large building through a set of doors that opened before me and found myself in a huge space filled with aisle after aisle of shelves stocked full with goods; they stretched far to my left...&quot; and so on. Of course, as this little demonstration of phenomenological description makes evident, one can never ENTIRELY bracket one&#039;s assumptions (what&#039;s a &quot;door,&quot; or an &quot;aisle,&quot; or &quot;goods&quot;?) as long as one uses language. But with practice, as you surely know, empirical description improves.
And, using the phenomenological method known as &quot;imaginative variation&quot; one can begin to adopt a perspective, what we&#039;re likely today to call a &quot;mindset,&quot; that *resembles* that of &quot;the enemy,&quot; or, more generally, &quot;the other.&quot; But, like the reduction described above, this is always an approximation of the other&#039;s mind.  It&#039;s a far cry from the kind of &quot;presuppositionless knowing&quot; that Husserl envisioned when he wrote about conducting a phenomenology *of* consciousness. The existential phenomenologists, like Heidegger, Merleau-Ponty and Sartre, were less interested in studying consciousness as consciousness, and more in studying human experience as lived. Those studies produced great insights into the constituents of human experience and provided the foundation for a qualitative, empirical approach. If you or your readers are interested in further reading on these issues, I&#039;d recommend the book, Psychology as a Human Science, by A. Giorgi.
I guess that&#039;s a long-winded way of saying that the problem our government is currently grappling with is one that philosophers and psychologists have spent centuries studying.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve spent my entire adult life thinking about the issues you describe in this post, Grant. As a graduate student, I studied phenomenological psychology. Phenomenology is the study of experience and the assumptions that are the constituents of that experience. The philosopher, Edmund Husserl, following in the footsteps of his teacher, Franz Brentano, wrote about performing what has come to be called the &#8220;phenomenological reduction.&#8221; In the reduction, one attempts to place one&#8217;s assumptions &#8220;in bracket,&#8221; holding them in abeyance, and describing an experience in their absence.</p>
<p>And so, instead of saying, &#8220;I walked into a supermarket and headed to the daily case,&#8221; one would say, &#8220;I entered a large building through a set of doors that opened before me and found myself in a huge space filled with aisle after aisle of shelves stocked full with goods; they stretched far to my left&#8230;&#8221; and so on. Of course, as this little demonstration of phenomenological description makes evident, one can never ENTIRELY bracket one&#8217;s assumptions (what&#8217;s a &#8220;door,&#8221; or an &#8220;aisle,&#8221; or &#8220;goods&#8221;?) as long as one uses language. But with practice, as you surely know, empirical description improves.</p>
<p>And, using the phenomenological method known as &#8220;imaginative variation&#8221; one can begin to adopt a perspective, what we&#8217;re likely today to call a &#8220;mindset,&#8221; that *resembles* that of &#8220;the enemy,&#8221; or, more generally, &#8220;the other.&#8221; But, like the reduction described above, this is always an approximation of the other&#8217;s mind.  It&#8217;s a far cry from the kind of &#8220;presuppositionless knowing&#8221; that Husserl envisioned when he wrote about conducting a phenomenology *of* consciousness. The existential phenomenologists, like Heidegger, Merleau-Ponty and Sartre, were less interested in studying consciousness as consciousness, and more in studying human experience as lived. Those studies produced great insights into the constituents of human experience and provided the foundation for a qualitative, empirical approach. If you or your readers are interested in further reading on these issues, I&#8217;d recommend the book, Psychology as a Human Science, by A. Giorgi.</p>
<p>I guess that&#8217;s a long-winded way of saying that the problem our government is currently grappling with is one that philosophers and psychologists have spent centuries studying.</p>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2005/09/unknown_unknown.html/comment-page-1#comment-5791</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Your comment reminds me of what I read about Pizarro&#039;s conquest of the Inca--that the Incas were unable to conceive that anyone would dare to lay his hands on the king, and so did not take sufficient precautions to protect the king&#039;s physical security. Pizarro took him hostage and used that leverage to loot and topple the empire (it helped that the Incas&#039; subjects weren&#039;t all that enthused with their lot).
My methodological question is this: How do you know when you&#039;ve learned to &quot;think like the enemy?&quot; By definition, implicit assumptions you have yet to root out are still there, undetected. I suppose you could try to run predictive tests, but given the small samples of enemy action we have to work with, I wouldn&#039;t place a great deal of confidence in them.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your comment reminds me of what I read about Pizarro&#8217;s conquest of the Inca&#8211;that the Incas were unable to conceive that anyone would dare to lay his hands on the king, and so did not take sufficient precautions to protect the king&#8217;s physical security. Pizarro took him hostage and used that leverage to loot and topple the empire (it helped that the Incas&#8217; subjects weren&#8217;t all that enthused with their lot).</p>
<p>My methodological question is this: How do you know when you&#8217;ve learned to &#8220;think like the enemy?&#8221; By definition, implicit assumptions you have yet to root out are still there, undetected. I suppose you could try to run predictive tests, but given the small samples of enemy action we have to work with, I wouldn&#8217;t place a great deal of confidence in them.</p>
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