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	<title>Comments on: Yahoo and the economists</title>
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	<link>http://cultureby.com/2006/08/yahoo_and_the_e.html</link>
	<description>This Blog Sits At the Intersection of Anthropology and Economics</description>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2006/08/yahoo_and_the_e.html/comment-page-1#comment-4154</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:18:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Obviously, I disagree with Peter&#039;s broad brush. Demand curves really do WORK; when you&#039;re trying to figure out what will happen to fuel consumption if the gas tax goes up or which buyers to give discounts to, quantitative approaches using market data are pretty effective. And they are furlongs better than focus groups or ethnographies, which would be like hammers used to drive screws in such problem contexts.
Economists&#039; allergy to asking people things directly comes from their fear that people will say things that don&#039;t reflect their true information/motives. Introspection is not entirely accurate, even if accurate may lead to embarrassing conclusions, and even if accurate and not embarrassing requires effort to conduct and communicate. Economists like to observe peoples&#039; behavior under changing incentives and constraints. Even the heterodox behavioral economists focus much more on what people do than on what they say they do.
Grant is right that this allergy leaves a lot of running room for anthropologists to make a contribution. Sometimes what people say is really helpful in understanding their decision process. And sometimes, where hard-to-objectively measure factors such as meaning are involved, only a cultural analysis can put meat on the economists&#039; analytical skeleton.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, I disagree with Peter&#8217;s broad brush. Demand curves really do WORK; when you&#8217;re trying to figure out what will happen to fuel consumption if the gas tax goes up or which buyers to give discounts to, quantitative approaches using market data are pretty effective. And they are furlongs better than focus groups or ethnographies, which would be like hammers used to drive screws in such problem contexts.</p>
<p>Economists&#8217; allergy to asking people things directly comes from their fear that people will say things that don&#8217;t reflect their true information/motives. Introspection is not entirely accurate, even if accurate may lead to embarrassing conclusions, and even if accurate and not embarrassing requires effort to conduct and communicate. Economists like to observe peoples&#8217; behavior under changing incentives and constraints. Even the heterodox behavioral economists focus much more on what people do than on what they say they do.</p>
<p>Grant is right that this allergy leaves a lot of running room for anthropologists to make a contribution. Sometimes what people say is really helpful in understanding their decision process. And sometimes, where hard-to-objectively measure factors such as meaning are involved, only a cultural analysis can put meat on the economists&#8217; analytical skeleton.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2006/08/yahoo_and_the_e.html/comment-page-1#comment-4153</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The phrase &quot;user sensitivity&quot; is key. Yahoo seems to feel that users of their free services are sheep -- the services are second tier and tend &quot;tilted&quot; so that the resources go towards their favor. Meanwhile, Google&#039;s win-win philosophy seems to shine through in just about everything they do. Yahoo still has their place, but they need to sure up their marketing position.
-Steve (lazycomic.blogspot.com)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The phrase &#8220;user sensitivity&#8221; is key. Yahoo seems to feel that users of their free services are sheep &#8212; the services are second tier and tend &#8220;tilted&#8221; so that the resources go towards their favor. Meanwhile, Google&#8217;s win-win philosophy seems to shine through in just about everything they do. Yahoo still has their place, but they need to sure up their marketing position.</p>
<p>-Steve (lazycomic.blogspot.com)</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2006/08/yahoo_and_the_e.html/comment-page-1#comment-4152</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As an anthropology major in college I sympathize with the sentiment of this post, but as an IT professional in a major corporation I have to say that the social sciences have almost zero credibility among techies.  The fact that Yahoo is willing to hire even economists is pretty amazing.  The sad fact is that the reputation for post-modernism that anthropology and similar fields have built over the last few decades in academia has overshadowed among many people in business - and especially IT - whatever else they may have to offer.  The ability to quantify results and at least pretend to be a &quot;real&quot; science has allowed economists to by and large escape this.  At least at my company, if you can&#039;t show ROI your project has no chance, and I&#039;m pretty sure if I tried to get approval for an IT project involving anthropologists I&#039;d get laughed out of the project approval board meeting.  Sad, but true, and you can thank academic anthropologists for the reputation (or lack thereof).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an anthropology major in college I sympathize with the sentiment of this post, but as an IT professional in a major corporation I have to say that the social sciences have almost zero credibility among techies.  The fact that Yahoo is willing to hire even economists is pretty amazing.  The sad fact is that the reputation for post-modernism that anthropology and similar fields have built over the last few decades in academia has overshadowed among many people in business &#8211; and especially IT &#8211; whatever else they may have to offer.  The ability to quantify results and at least pretend to be a &#8220;real&#8221; science has allowed economists to by and large escape this.  At least at my company, if you can&#8217;t show ROI your project has no chance, and I&#8217;m pretty sure if I tried to get approval for an IT project involving anthropologists I&#8217;d get laughed out of the project approval board meeting.  Sad, but true, and you can thank academic anthropologists for the reputation (or lack thereof).</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2006/08/yahoo_and_the_e.html/comment-page-1#comment-4151</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Agree with you completely, Grant!
I have probably said this before on your blog:  I believe marketing exists to the extent that the assumptions of neoclassical (textbook) economics are false.  People and companies are not individual utility maximizers; they are not even would-be individual utility maximizers; they discount future events in a manner inconsistent with (neoclassical) economic theory; they do not have perfect knowledge, not even about the past; they do not have unlimited information processing powers or memories; nor are there even such things as commodities.
Of course, the standard defence of these assumptions is that in modeling economic phenomena we have to start somewhere.  There are two responses to this claim:  First, why here, when these assumptions are so obviously false? And second, how do we know we can get from these absurd assumptions to somewhere close to where we want to be, where the assumptions are more realistic?   We can only do that if the relationship between the underlying phenomena and our model of it is continuous; in other words, if it is the case that a small change in our assumptions still keeps our model close to the phenomena we are modeling. Every business and marketing experience, and every statistical instinct I have, tells me this is not the case with markets.
Marketplaces are complex, adaptive, reflective systems, not machines; and models of markets need to use metaphors from biology and complex systems, rather than on 19th century mechanics.
Of course, the real answer to &quot;Why here?&quot; is because these unrealistic assumptions make the math easier.  When economics ceases to be a discipline which puts mathematical tractability ahead of insight into human motivation and behaviour they might get somewhere.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with you completely, Grant!</p>
<p>I have probably said this before on your blog:  I believe marketing exists to the extent that the assumptions of neoclassical (textbook) economics are false.  People and companies are not individual utility maximizers; they are not even would-be individual utility maximizers; they discount future events in a manner inconsistent with (neoclassical) economic theory; they do not have perfect knowledge, not even about the past; they do not have unlimited information processing powers or memories; nor are there even such things as commodities.</p>
<p>Of course, the standard defence of these assumptions is that in modeling economic phenomena we have to start somewhere.  There are two responses to this claim:  First, why here, when these assumptions are so obviously false? And second, how do we know we can get from these absurd assumptions to somewhere close to where we want to be, where the assumptions are more realistic?   We can only do that if the relationship between the underlying phenomena and our model of it is continuous; in other words, if it is the case that a small change in our assumptions still keeps our model close to the phenomena we are modeling. Every business and marketing experience, and every statistical instinct I have, tells me this is not the case with markets.</p>
<p>Marketplaces are complex, adaptive, reflective systems, not machines; and models of markets need to use metaphors from biology and complex systems, rather than on 19th century mechanics.</p>
<p>Of course, the real answer to &#8220;Why here?&#8221; is because these unrealistic assumptions make the math easier.  When economics ceases to be a discipline which puts mathematical tractability ahead of insight into human motivation and behaviour they might get somewhere.</p>
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