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	<title>Comments on: Swingtown and other acts of critical promiscuity</title>
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	<description>This Blog Sits At the Intersection of Anthropology and Economics</description>
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		<title>By: Grant McCracken</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2008/06/swingtown-and-o.html/comment-page-1#comment-1646</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant McCracken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Virginia,
You&#039;re right.  Mad Men is 1960.  As to the 1970s, I think this was a style struggling to come to terms with the changes that Franklin details.  Here&#039;s what she says in the EW review:
By 1976, some of the currents of the sixties--women&#039;s     liberation and youth culture--had become mainstream; family men sported long sideburns; schoolteachers looked a little more unbuttoned; mothers started wearing pants and shorter skirts, and going to work, and divorce had lost most of its shock value.
If we want, we can say this is a diffusion moment, when some of experimentation that took place in the 1960s enters the mainstream.  The kids who made the 1960s were young, they were creatures of relative privilege, they had goodish educations.  The people occupying the mainstream were hard working, nose to the grind stone, sexually conservative, religiously conservative, socially conservative and domestically conservative, and, bam, the world suddenly and fundamentally changed for them.  (Yes, they had the opportunity of early notice.  They got to see the 60s happening at a distance.  But they were I think still tested.)
I think if popular culture &quot;stank&quot; it&#039;s because it was bending before (or struggling to evade) the tectonic pressures of this culture shift.  In the language of your distinquished book, it&#039;s style giving voice to culture.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Virginia,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right.  Mad Men is 1960.  As to the 1970s, I think this was a style struggling to come to terms with the changes that Franklin details.  Here&#8217;s what she says in the EW review:</p>
<p>By 1976, some of the currents of the sixties&#8211;women&#8217;s     liberation and youth culture&#8211;had become mainstream; family men sported long sideburns; schoolteachers looked a little more unbuttoned; mothers started wearing pants and shorter skirts, and going to work, and divorce had lost most of its shock value.</p>
<p>If we want, we can say this is a diffusion moment, when some of experimentation that took place in the 1960s enters the mainstream.  The kids who made the 1960s were young, they were creatures of relative privilege, they had goodish educations.  The people occupying the mainstream were hard working, nose to the grind stone, sexually conservative, religiously conservative, socially conservative and domestically conservative, and, bam, the world suddenly and fundamentally changed for them.  (Yes, they had the opportunity of early notice.  They got to see the 60s happening at a distance.  But they were I think still tested.)</p>
<p>I think if popular culture &#8220;stank&#8221; it&#8217;s because it was bending before (or struggling to evade) the tectonic pressures of this culture shift.  In the language of your distinquished book, it&#8217;s style giving voice to culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Virginia Postrel</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2008/06/swingtown-and-o.html/comment-page-1#comment-1645</link>
		<dc:creator>Virginia Postrel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 23:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To riff on my husband-contemporary&#039;s post, the presentism is judging &#039;70s pop culture by the good stuff that was obscure at the time but is prominent today. Philip K. Dick? Nobody&#039;d heard of him. Think The Thorn Birds. (To be fair, there was so much music that some of it was good.) And the TV was awful. I remember being home sick one day watching old black-and-white reruns of 1960s Bewitched and thinking &quot;TV shows used to be good!&quot; Speaking of Bewitched, isn&#039;t Mad Men, which I&#039;ve never seen, set in that 1960s ad culture, not the 1970s?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To riff on my husband-contemporary&#8217;s post, the presentism is judging &#8217;70s pop culture by the good stuff that was obscure at the time but is prominent today. Philip K. Dick? Nobody&#8217;d heard of him. Think The Thorn Birds. (To be fair, there was so much music that some of it was good.) And the TV was awful. I remember being home sick one day watching old black-and-white reruns of 1960s Bewitched and thinking &#8220;TV shows used to be good!&#8221; Speaking of Bewitched, isn&#8217;t Mad Men, which I&#8217;ve never seen, set in that 1960s ad culture, not the 1970s?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Rosenblatt</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2008/06/swingtown-and-o.html/comment-page-1#comment-1644</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Rosenblatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 06:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m not terribly familiar with Nancy Franklin, so it is hard for me to be sure, but in the passage you quote &quot;At the same time, the popular culture being generated largely stank--and people just went along with it!  It was all so mystifying&quot; might not be presentist but instead a historicist attempt to capture the way people at the time felt: I was a teenager at the time, and one of the things I think characterized the seventies was a pretty widespread sense that most of the popular culture being produced was inferior and/or inauthentic: &quot;Disco Sucks&quot; was the way we put it at the time.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not terribly familiar with Nancy Franklin, so it is hard for me to be sure, but in the passage you quote &#8220;At the same time, the popular culture being generated largely stank&#8211;and people just went along with it!  It was all so mystifying&#8221; might not be presentist but instead a historicist attempt to capture the way people at the time felt: I was a teenager at the time, and one of the things I think characterized the seventies was a pretty widespread sense that most of the popular culture being produced was inferior and/or inauthentic: &#8220;Disco Sucks&#8221; was the way we put it at the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Liebling</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2008/06/swingtown-and-o.html/comment-page-1#comment-1643</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Liebling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nostalgia is a funny thing. Steven, I believe you are right, the 60s, 80s &amp; 90s, for the most part, are remembered fondly from a pop culture standpoint, yet the 70s are looked down upon. I suppose one could argue the 80s/90s wouldn&#039;t be possible without the 70s.
What I find curious is that while people seem to forget the junk of the 60s/80s/90s and remember the good stuff, the opposite is true of the 70s. It wasn&#039;t that 70s pop culture was all bad, it&#039;s just that the bad seems to be remembered more vividly than the good.
I was born in 1970 and grew up a kid of the 80s so I&#039;m not in the best position to curate the pop cultural museum of the 70s, but I find plenty that I like from that decade (Philip K. Dick, Steely Dan, The French Connection, etc.) and many of my current heroes (Belle &amp; Sebastian, Wes Anderson) clearly mine that decade for inspiration.
Also, here&#039;s the Slate (positive) review of Swingtown:
http://www.slate.com/id/2193039/
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nostalgia is a funny thing. Steven, I believe you are right, the 60s, 80s &#038; 90s, for the most part, are remembered fondly from a pop culture standpoint, yet the 70s are looked down upon. I suppose one could argue the 80s/90s wouldn&#8217;t be possible without the 70s.</p>
<p>What I find curious is that while people seem to forget the junk of the 60s/80s/90s and remember the good stuff, the opposite is true of the 70s. It wasn&#8217;t that 70s pop culture was all bad, it&#8217;s just that the bad seems to be remembered more vividly than the good.</p>
<p>I was born in 1970 and grew up a kid of the 80s so I&#8217;m not in the best position to curate the pop cultural museum of the 70s, but I find plenty that I like from that decade (Philip K. Dick, Steely Dan, The French Connection, etc.) and many of my current heroes (Belle &#038; Sebastian, Wes Anderson) clearly mine that decade for inspiration.</p>
<p>Also, here&#8217;s the Slate (positive) review of Swingtown:<br />
<a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2193039/" rel="nofollow">http://www.slate.com/id/2193039/</a></p>
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		<title>By: srp</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2008/06/swingtown-and-o.html/comment-page-1#comment-1642</link>
		<dc:creator>srp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Presentism is one thing; relativism is another.
I grew up in the era and have negative nostalgia for most pop culture from 1973-79, at least the parts I knew about (I didn&#039;t discover things like Blondie until much later). James Lileks has very specific (and humorous)examples on his various websites of the outlandishly hideous and meretricious graphic design and artwork rife even in children&#039;s books during this period.
It is not my impression that people who grew up in the 60s, &#039;80s, or &#039;90s have the same anti-nostalgia for the music, style, and pop culture of their youth. So perhaps we have an objective marker of sorts--no one is going to ever wear a rust-colored leisure suit again (unless as a form of campy drag) but skinny ties and &#039;80s music are genuinely enjoyed by those who grew up with them and those who grew up after them.
Just as we can judge literature by whether it stands the test of time, we can judge popular culture as well. Obviously, there is a normative value judgment at the bottom that can&#039;t be derived from a more fundamental objective premise, but I&#039;m pretty comfortable with a widely shared and deeply felt feeling of &quot;yuck.&quot; That judgment is a social fact at least as much as the demand curve for beer.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Presentism is one thing; relativism is another.</p>
<p>I grew up in the era and have negative nostalgia for most pop culture from 1973-79, at least the parts I knew about (I didn&#8217;t discover things like Blondie until much later). James Lileks has very specific (and humorous)examples on his various websites of the outlandishly hideous and meretricious graphic design and artwork rife even in children&#8217;s books during this period.</p>
<p>It is not my impression that people who grew up in the 60s, &#8217;80s, or &#8217;90s have the same anti-nostalgia for the music, style, and pop culture of their youth. So perhaps we have an objective marker of sorts&#8211;no one is going to ever wear a rust-colored leisure suit again (unless as a form of campy drag) but skinny ties and &#8217;80s music are genuinely enjoyed by those who grew up with them and those who grew up after them.</p>
<p>Just as we can judge literature by whether it stands the test of time, we can judge popular culture as well. Obviously, there is a normative value judgment at the bottom that can&#8217;t be derived from a more fundamental objective premise, but I&#8217;m pretty comfortable with a widely shared and deeply felt feeling of &#8220;yuck.&#8221; That judgment is a social fact at least as much as the demand curve for beer.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://cultureby.com/2008/06/swingtown-and-o.html/comment-page-1#comment-1641</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ll just watch because Molly Parker is in it--she&#039;s my favourite Canadian actor (with apologies, I suppose, to Sarah Polley).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll just watch because Molly Parker is in it&#8211;she&#8217;s my favourite Canadian actor (with apologies, I suppose, to Sarah Polley).</p>
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